Enough

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Enough

fschmidt
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In the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), God never commanded the Israelites to go out among the corrupt peoples and convert them.  God told the Israelites to stay away from these people and occasionally to slaughter them in war.  Christianity changed this message.  Christians do actively try to convert almost anyone.  I was behaving more like a Christian, trying to spread the CoAlpha message.  But I have changed my mind and now I am solidly on the side of the God of the Hebrew Bible.  The corrupt people, those who have no respect for the Hebrew Bible, are to be avoided, except in the case of a war with them, in which case they should be slaughtered.  Interactions with corrupt people should never go beyond "would you like fries with that", in other words only the most shallow and impersonal interactions.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Enough

J. Donner
Do you know God's name - AHYH ASR AHYH, or YHWH? If you do, why use God when you could use the Name instead?

Where do you stand on YHSWH? Was he the Messiah prophesied or a false prophet? Something in between? What do you think about his teachings about the Kingdom, that the Kingdom is inside us and the time is already fulfilled? (Why are we waiting for an earthly kingdom of earthly power when the spiritual kingdom of spiritual power is already available?)
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Re: Enough

fschmidt
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J. Donner wrote
Do you know God's name - AHYH ASR AHYH, or YHWH? If you do, why use God when you could use the Name instead?
In English it is commonly written YHWH but the W is actually the current Hebrew V, so maybe YHVH would be more accurate, but we don't know how it was pronounced back then and we don't know the vowels.  Given all this ambiguity, it seems reasonable to use the English reference "God".

Where do you stand on YHSWH? Was he the Messiah prophesied or a false prophet? Something in between? What do you think about his teachings about the Kingdom, that the Kingdom is inside us and the time is already fulfilled? (Why are we waiting for an earthly kingdom of earthly power when the spiritual kingdom of spiritual power is already available?)
Jesus was a good guy.  He never claimed to be a prophet, so he can hardly be a false prophet.  Whether he actually was a prophet or Messiah isn't important to me.  I generally like what he was reported to have said in the Gospels, but I am rather less fond of the words that Paul put in his mouth after his death.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Enough

J. Donner
I'll just leave this here for consideration:

http://www.yhwh.com/asimple.htm
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Re: Enough

fschmidt
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J. Donner wrote
I'll just leave this here for consideration:

http://www.yhwh.com/asimple.htm
This seems quite reasonable, but I don't know ancient Hebrew, so I can't judge.

I have a question for you.  Do you think that the Old Testament law applies to you?  For more, please see Karaite Christianity.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Enough

J. Donner
This post was updated on .
Yeshua taught that the two greatest commandments were to love God with all your heart, strength and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. These, he said, were the summation of all the Law and the Prophets.

Which means, if you truly love God and you truly love your neighbors, you are fulfilling the Law. (The point here is that many do not know how to love.)

::EDIT:: Direct quote:

Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
"Jesus said to him, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Other scripture to prayerfully consider (emphasis my own... keep in mind "repent" means to change the way you think):

Matthew 3:1-2
In those days, John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying "REPENT, for the kingdom of heaven is AT HAND." This is echoed by Yeshua in Matthew 4:17.

Matthew 9:17
But go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.

Matthew 12:25
I thank you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

Mark 1:15
And saying, "The time is FULFILLED, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Mark 7:6-7
He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Luke 17:20-21
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The Kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say "see here!" or "see there!" For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.

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Re: Enough

fschmidt
Administrator
J. Donner wrote
Yeshua taught that the two greatest commandments were to love God with all your heart, strength and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. These, he said, were the summation of all the Law and the Prophets.

Which means, if you truly love God and you truly love your neighbors, you are fulfilling the Law. (The point here is that many do not know how to love.)
No it doesn't.  If I were to summarize a set of laws with the principle behind the laws, would you be able to derive the laws from the summary?  I don't think so.  The reason for the Old Testament law is because normal people are not capable of deriving these laws from first principles, therefore people should follow the Law.  And nothing that Jesus said indicates anything to the contrary.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Enough

J. Donner
So you believe, and so it is for you. Scripture speaks for itself and the Holy Spirit teaches all who will listen - if this is what the Spirit has told you is the Truth, who am I to say otherwise?
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Re: Enough

fschmidt
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Fair enough.  If you do know anyone who does follow the Old Testament law, please suggest that they look at the Open Karaite site.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Enough

J. Donner
What do you make of all the Laws Yeshua broke in his own time? Just some examples off the top of my head...

- He and the disciples eating the temple grains (or was it the showbread? I know he talks about David and his disciples eating the showbread... you can look it up)
- Refusing to stone the adulteress even though the Law demanded her death
- Breaking Sabbath Laws numerous times
- Hand washing laws
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Re: Enough

fschmidt
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J. Donner wrote
What do you make of all the Laws Yeshua broke in his own time? Just some examples off the top of my head...
To my knowledge, Jesus never broke an Old Testament law.

- He and the disciples eating the temple grains (or was it the showbread? I know he talks about David and his disciples eating the showbread... you can look it up)
Which law is this breaking?

- Refusing to stone the adulteress even though the Law demanded her death
This story is only in John and was probably added later.  I doubt it really happened.  But in any case, some Old Testament laws were specific to the times and some weren't.  The death penalty made sense at that time when prison was impractical but now I oppose the death penalty because it is no longer needed.  Those parts of the Old Testament that seem specific to the time should be adjusted.  What matters is the intent of the law.  But in any case, John is the least reliable Gospel and I have doubts about any story that is only found in John.

- Breaking Sabbath Laws numerous times
Jesus never broke the Sabbath Law (there is only one).  He violated the legalisms that were added later by the Pharisees.

- Hand washing laws
There is absolutely nothing in the Old Testament about washing hands.  This is another invention of the Pharisees.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Enough

J. Donner
Then what do you mean exactly by Law? The Ten Commandments, or the 600+ mitzvahs (I believe that is what they are called?)

Most of the time "Law" is referred to in the Bible, the intent is to refer to the mitzvahs and the Commandments. Things like being circumcised (not one of the ten commandments) are considered part of the Law.

Of course, if you're a careful reader, there are plenty of places where YHWH says even in the Old Testament that the Law cannot satisfy him, with sayings like "you are circumcised in the flesh but not in the heart..." Again I'd take a look at Matthew 9:17...

Related to your comment about the reliability of John (which touches on the issue of the inerrancy of the Bible), you might consider reading this: http://www.yhwh.com/Thoughts/inerrancy.htm

Though I should point out at this point that the IMPORTANT thing is agreement on the fundamentals; God exists, he sent his Son, that sort of thing... doctrinal debates can create division where there really should be none.
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Re: Enough

fschmidt
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J. Donner wrote
Then what do you mean exactly by Law? The Ten Commandments, or the 600+ mitzvahs (I believe that is what they are called?)
All the law in the Old Testament should be considered.  We have a brain which is designed to help us understand these laws in the context of the time they were given.  Certain laws, like the Ten Commandments, are certainly timeless.  Other laws were given because they made sense at the time, like not eating pork because it carried parasites.  No law should be ignored but each law should be understood as well as possible in its context and applied in a sensible way.  So again using dietary law as an example, the intent was to avoid unhealthy food and this advice certainly applies today.

Most of the time "Law" is referred to in the Bible, the intent is to refer to the mitzvahs and the Commandments. Things like being circumcised (not one of the ten commandments) are considered part of the Law.
Being circumcised was asked of the descendants of Abraham.  We have no idea who is a descendant of Abraham, so I don't worry about that.  I also don't take too seriously things compiled by Rabbinic Jews who have their own agenda.  I just read the Old Testament and study history.

Of course, if you're a careful reader, there are plenty of places where YHWH says even in the Old Testament that the Law cannot satisfy him, with sayings like "you are circumcised in the flesh but not in the heart..." Again I'd take a look at Matthew 9:17...
Matthew 9:17 is in the context of fasts by the Pharisees.  These were customs of the time.  All Jesus seems to be saying is new customs should apply to new situations.  I don't know where your quote comes from.

Related to your comment about the reliability of John (which touches on the issue of the inerrancy of the Bible), you might consider reading this: http://www.yhwh.com/Thoughts/inerrancy.htm
Yes this also makes sense and supports what I said.

Though I should point out at this point that the IMPORTANT thing is agreement on the fundamentals; God exists, he sent his Son, that sort of thing... doctrinal debates can create division where there really should be none.
Those are fundamentals of Christianity.  I am not a Christian.  My point is that there is something in common between all of the Abrahamic religions and that is found in the Old Testament.  The beauty of the Old Testament is that it avoids doctrinal debates by avoiding doctrine in the first place.  The Old Testament is about how to behave, not about what to believe.  So Christians, Muslims, and Jews may have very different beliefs, but if they agree on the behaviors asked for in the Old Testament, then they should get along and the world would be a much nicer and more moral place.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture