Thoughts on Censorship

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Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
Censorship is needed for a forum based on an indefensible premise.  This indefensible premise may be very popular, so the forum may be successful, this success depending on censorship.  From a practical point of view, removing censorship from such a forum would be a mistake.

Most views are not indefensible.  Two conflicting views may each be internally consistent and so be defensible.  For example, atheism and Christianity conflict but are both defensible.  So a forum based on either would not need censorship.  But most recent liberal views, like feminism, are not defensible, so a forum based on these views would need censorship.

Wrong Planet is a forum about Aspergers.  Aspergers is an invented psychiatric condition to describe people weak in socializing, particularly the kind of socializing that appeals to women.  It is basically nonsense and is not defensible.  A basic assumption for these kind of invented psychiatric conditions is that the problem rests totally with the individual and not at all with society.  So society is defended at all costs.  Conditions like Aspergers greatly appeal to women and feminists because this allows them to label men who don't appeal to them as defective.  Of course women also claim to have Aspergers, both to be equal with men and because women love having all kinds of conditions that can get them sympathy.  Weak men will accept this label and feel sorry for themselves.  This takes much less effort than realizing that society is the problem, and doing what it takes to succeed in a rotten society.  Obviously censorship is needed to protect a forum like Wrong Planet.

Love-shy is a forum for men who have trouble with women, much like our forum is.  But the basic premise of this forum is that dating failure is due to conditions beyond men's control.  The exact cause isn't that important as long as it isn't fixable.  This allows the men to commiserate and get sympathy.  I can understand from a psychological viewpoint why this is valued.  And like with the Aspergers men, it is much easier to complain than to take action to solve the problem.  This forum requires less censorship than Wrong Planet does.  You can complain about feminism and society as long as you don't step over the line and actually prove that this is the problem and that it can be solved.  So when I brought up Unwin's "Sex and Culture", I was stepping over this line because this book actually proves the point.  Similarly, pushing men to take action and find women outside the femisphere is stepping over the line.  So in this sense, the censorship in this forum makes sense.  I don't think Ramm (the admin) actually understands any of this consciously, but subconsciously he is offended when his loser/sympathy point of view is threatened, and this is what forms the line.

So what will happen here in this forum without censorship?  I am beginning to have doubts.  If a man posts here about his problems with women, looking for sympathy, my instinct is to tell him to get off his ass and go to a non-feminist country where he won't have these problems.  This may very well not be the answer he wanted.  Most of those men who are naturally more action oriented have probably figured this out for themselves and so won't come here in the first place.  So my question is, is this forum addressing a real niche or not?
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Advanced
My theory is much much more simple.  I can sum up the reason you got banned in two words....political correctness.  I can't find your posts on Wrong Planet but I dont even need to read them to know what happened.  You told them that feminism was the problem...the girls got offended, the males white knighted and feigned being offended to score points with the girls there, they called you a sexist, then banned you.  Does that sum it up?

Most censorship on the internet in general is due to political correctness.  Political correctness is a very powerful weapon that feminists (and manginas) exploit at any given opportunity....and its pretty effective too given that most men are absolutely terrified of looking sexist.  Of course women can talk about how much they hate men all day because it is politically correct for them to do so.
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
Yes your Wrong Planet description sums it up.  That was standard political correctness.  But what about love-shy?  That place is less politically correct.  Censorship can exist on forums that aren't politically correct, so I was trying to cover censorship generally.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Ardia
Your viewpoint is based on your evolutionary theory that women choose certain personality characteristics over others as their main selection criteria. Therefore when one goes abroad, where women choose differently - you hit the jackpot.

If the criteria is different, size (or perhaps even, looks), then its a different story.

The difference is the first has a clear call to action. In one place you are condemned, in another you are accepted. And the reason for your success abroad is internal to you - you have permanent ownership of it.

In the second, you can be successful abroad, yes. Because they are poorer countries and women will override what they want for what they need. However as it is something external, in the sense that a non-individual can provide it, if you bring them back - they will get what they need from other sources besides you, and then chase what they want (that you do not have). You have no permanent ownership of the criteria involved*.

As for censorship, its actually a sliding scale with social stigmatization being the gray area between complete freedom and an outright ban on a topic/viewpoint. All forums will adopt a flavour of what is acceptable and what is not.

In loveshy, Ramm wanted to restrict (maybe even ban) Advanced looks fixation as he did yours (maybe not as much, but take it as an argument), but Advanced generated a lot of interest in his ideas - evidenced by the 10+ pages of followup on every looks thread he starts. Yours did not, so restricting you does not draw as much ire from the masses and is 'safer' to police. If you started a thread on sexandculture and everyone went hogwild over it, Im thinking maybe it would be grudgingly allowed.

So, as for the question - does this forum address a real niche? I don't want to see it shut down as its the only forum for your evolutionary views, but overall - less than you would like.


*(Another thing is ugly men can have the cooperation of other men and be 'accepted' in non sexual situations by them, while small men are merely a target to other men - but this would probably deserve a thread of its own).
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Drealm
In reply to this post by fschmidt
I don't know anything about Aspergers, but I encountered a similar hostility on a social anxiety forum. Your description of censorship perfectly described that social anxiety forum. Whenever I'd tell the men there that it's women's fault they're incel, they'd still blame themselves and get angry at me. Most of the men there will die single virgins. Or simply be doomed to the bottom rung of picking up the scraps left by other men.

As for your questions:

fschmidt wrote
So what will happen here in this forum without censorship?  I am beginning to have doubts.  If a man posts here about his problems with women, looking for sympathy, my instinct is to tell him to get off his ass and go to a non-feminist country where he won't have these problems.  This may very well not be the answer he wanted.  Most of those men who are naturally more action oriented have probably figured this out for themselves and so won't come here in the first place.
I certainly hope you're not leaning towards censorship. It wouldn't affect me since I'm in lockstep with most of your views, but it would undermine the forums integrity.

As you originally said:

fschmidt wrote
The forum is meant as a place where men can freely express themselves without fear of intimidation by overzealous admins and moderators.  Only spam and personal insults are not allowed.

I hope that this forum also serves to encourage men to take positive action to solve their dating problems.  Different people have different thoughts about what the best solution is, but it is my hope that participants here will eventually choose a solution and take action on it.
I think it's good to stick to the above.
 
As for:

fschmidt wrote
So my question is, is this forum addressing a real niche or not?
I think we're a niche only in that the alternatives like "Love-Shy", "Incel Support", "MGTOW", ect, have more censorship. Essentially we're serving the outcasts from those forums. Forums most of the time also seem to also reflect the administrators view. Since your views are very original fschmidt, I'd say the trickle down effect of your views does make this forum more niche.
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ardia
That Ramm banned Advanced's posts on looks is a good argument that Ramm is just somewhat randomly censoring whatever offends him, so what I wrote in my original post is probably wrong.  But this random censoring by Ramm does seem to accidentally have the effect I described and so far no real solutions have been pushed very hard there.

Whether or not this forum has a niche depends on whether incel men are more looking for sympathy or solutions.  I don't know the answer.

I can express my views in different places.  An alternative to this forum would be a more public CoAlpha forum.  I have no reason to shut this forum down, but I am not sure what to push.  I will post about the idea of making the CoAlpha forum more public over there.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Drealm
Of course I am not leaning towards censorship.  I am only questioning if this forum can succeed.  If most incel men are seeking sympathy instead of solutions, then this forum will not grow.  And in that case, maybe it would make more sense to focus on a more public CoAlpha forum instead.  I am not sure what to do and will post more over on CoAlpha.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Ardia
Another thought. Is a no censorship rule REALLY all that great?

For example, what if stefan came over here and started posting to his hearts content?
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
If it's just mindless spam then I would delete it.  But if stefan came here and posted, I would respond to his posts.  I don't think he could tolerate that for long in an uncensored environment.  In the worst case, we could create a "Trollville" subforum and move offensive threads there, but I don't see a need to ban anyone (except spammers).
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Scorpius
In reply to this post by fschmidt
fschmidt, the problem with expressing your views on the LS forum is that they tend to create a chilling effect on the women there. LS.com is a site for both male and female love-shys, and I think that effect is what caused Ramm to try and censor and shut down what you're saying. I don't necessarily agree with his decision, but he is an admin and it was his call. Personally I would have given you more air time but you did have a history with "hot button" topics like american women deserving to be raped and that does tend to drive people away more than attract them. Since LS.com and all dateless men forums are struggling, we need all the help we can get, and not just drive everyone away. Stuff like that has a huge chilling effect on membership and exposes us to ridicule online. It makes it hard to reach new guys who are dateless and desperate and trying to figure out what's going on.

You can't just tell the average guy who doesn't know any better to read Unwin and say the problem is feminism, etc. He won't believe it. Stuff like that has to be introduced gradually. Otherwise he'll just look elsewhere and wander off to places like incel support, which will do much more harm to him than "whining" and being a "loser" on love-shy.com. Love-shy.com's purpose is to limit the damage the mainstream societal views cause.
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
Thanks for the feedback, Scorpius.  I have to admit having a hard time relating to what you say just based on how I felt when I was younger, but I am not disagreeing.  When I was younger, I would have tried anything to solve my problem.  If someone told me that X solves the problem, I would have seriously investigated X to see if it had any hope, and if it did, I would have tried it.  I don't expect most guys to read Unwin.  But I do expect that when foreign women are offered as a solution, at least it gets investigated.  I expect real debate and discussion about all possible solutions including PUA, body building, and other suggestions.  It is the lack of this kind of discussion that makes me wonder whether men are really looking for solutions.

I did have a few "hot button" topics on LS, but most of my posts were not focused on these things.  And the stuff that most upset Ramm, like Unwin, seems completely harmless.  The ridicule thing is also hard for me to understand.  Most guys post with a username that has no connection to their real name, so what exposure do they have exactly?  Most of the ridicule was aimed at me and other guys who have given up on the mainstream anyway, so we don't care.  The only reason I can imagine ridicule mattering is for guys looking for sympathy, since ridicule is the opposite of sympathy.  But these guys are hopeless anyway.

Scorpius, I am just responding with my thoughts.  If I am wrong, just tell it to me like it is.  I want to understand these guys well enough so that I can decide whether this forum is worth my time.  What is your opinion, does this forum make sense?
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
seb
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

seb
In reply to this post by fschmidt
Yes, this forum is addressing a real the issue, but men who are challenged by dating should be given sympathy and understanding, but I agree they should be encouraged to seek solutions at the same time.

And yes, I have been guilty of whining.
seb
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

seb
In reply to this post by Scorpius
Good post Scorpius, but you must recall that LS.Com was originally for the dating challenged MALE, not female, and let's be honest here, the few women on LS forum are not really LS or incel (virtually impossible for a woman given the ease they can find a man). The women on LS.com are simply waiting for Brad Pitt to knock on their door and ask them out.

When women are single, it's because it's a lifestyle choice, for an incel man it's not a choice.
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Scorpius
I want to add to this. I read the niceguy forum and you say that the two other incel forums (incel support and love-shy.com) both follow the feminist orthodoxy. I don't know but I think this is a bit of an unfair comparison. I think love-shy.com is one of the best places to truly flesh together things and speak without fear of repercussions, relative to other places on the net at least. I mean, people will argue with you, but it's not like your posts will get deleted and locked and all that. I mean, look at EI's rape fantasy thread. And many other things. There's tons of stuff on ls.com that would get you banned immediately at incel support. LS.com doesn't come close to incel support on that.

I feel ls.com is a place where I can express my opinion. Yeah, maybe I'll get potshots from people, but it's not like they can do anything about it. As far as I'm concerned it's a great place to vent about things and quite a few people have had success since going there. So it's not that people are just sitting there complaining (even though that makes up probably 75% of the forum posts).
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Scorpius
In reply to this post by seb
I know, Seb. But the nice thing about ls.com is that these women say stuff and the smart poster can pick up on the fact that their actions don't match their words. I mean, look at my responses to their posts. I'm constantly counteracting the usual suspects of women posters by saying, for instance, that it's fucking impossible for every single guy who asks you out to be a player.

I like how they got all indignant when darwin pointed out how women see all unfamiliar men who ask them out as players. I pointed this out several months ago myself, and questioned whether internet dating sites could even work in theory as a result of this. I mean, if a woman sees every unfamiliar guy who messages her as a player, who is she gonna accept? Of course, if this is true, why would a woman be on a dating site in the first place? The simple answer to that is attention. But oh noo, don't tell them that, they'll blow up in your face.

But I guess this kind of proves fschmidt's point, in that I don't say stuff like this that often on the ls.com forum, because I don't want too much conflict with the women there. I don't know. I guess no-girlfriend.com will become the place where I'll truly speak my mind 100%, while I'll do it on LS.com 80-90%. Both places are much better than incel support where I was harassed by the orthodoxy for even questioning feminist thought.

I wish places like no-girlfriend.com or the current incarnation of ls.com existed, say, three years ago, when I was in my downward spiral. Places like this need to exist, and in as many places as possible.
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

Scorpius
In reply to this post by fschmidt
Fschmidt: Yes, I think this forum makes sense. I think it's a good idea to have a forum where guys are more action-oriented toward, say, global dating, among other things, instead of constantly saying there's no way out. And there's a big grey area between people who don't want to do anything and those confident enough to not seek solutions online. I think most of the people who will end up on this forum will fall in that grey area. They just need to work through things and find out more information. Drealm is a good example.

At first I was a little aversive to a forum that seemed to be formed as a splinter of the LS forum due to a perceived slight that wasn't there, but I can see the point. Women on ls.com due stifle some of the conversation. And I feel like I have to be politically correct around the other admins, while I can say more or less what really think about things here. So based on my personal example, I'd say that No-girlfriend.com is a good thing.

I'd actually encourage you to take some of your Unwin debate back over to ls.com. Maybe use other angles, such as slutty attire, to try and show what others can readily see and how it's connected to feminism. I don't think you should stop posting at ls.com just because of ramm or anyone else, because I think there's plenty of posters who will listen, but don't necessarily post in response.
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Scorpius
Scorpius, here is what Ramm said:

fschmidt, is it just me or have your posts started to look more paranoid and insane ever since I gave you your new title?

Either way, since you still can't provide any new research to back up Unwin's claims from the past 30 years, I'm thinking of imposing a UWT-style ban on all Unwin talk as "crazy conspiracy talk that doesn't belong here".
This is pure censorship and has nothing to do with avoiding "a chilling effect on the women" or anything else.  It is simply because Ramm is a bully and sided with that prick Stefan when I tried to debate with him.  Ramm also bullied Advanced and wouldn't allow an open debate on looks.  In some ways LS.com bothers me more than incel support because the censorship on incel support is obvious while LS.com pretends to allow free speech but really doesn't.  LS.com isn't a place where I can express my opinion, so I am done posting anything of substance there.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Re: Thoughts on Censorship

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Scorpius
Scorpius wrote
Fschmidt: Yes, I think this forum makes sense. I think it's a good idea to have a forum where guys are more action-oriented toward, say, global dating, among other things, instead of constantly saying there's no way out. And there's a big grey area between people who don't want to do anything and those confident enough to not seek solutions online. I think most of the people who will end up on this forum will fall in that grey area. They just need to work through things and find out more information. Drealm is a good example.
The fact that you just applied for CoAlpha and most other posters here are in CoAlpha indicates to me that this forum doesn't fill a separate niche and should really just be a sub-forum of CoAlpha.  Of course I won't do this unilaterally, I will have a discussion on this first, but those are my thoughts.

Scorpius wrote
I'd actually encourage you to take some of your Unwin debate back over to ls.com.
Ramm won't allow it.
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture